Post by catastrophe on Oct 28, 2012 11:17:34 GMT -7
I have started a new thread bucause I would like to investigate a new approach applicable to all the so-called 'unexplained'. This will in part involve abilities which may be latent and/or developing in the human mind. I hope we will not be assailed with blind dogma as I would like to see intelligent contribution and discussion. For my part, I have access to many surveys on so-called 'unexplainable' subjects and will provide full documentation wherever possible, as I hope will also contributors.
Post by catastrophe on Oct 28, 2012 11:34:11 GMT -7
I will kick off with one example which I hope will whet your appetite:
One well known biologist and author advertised in the Bombay Times, with the offer of a substantial reward for a successful performance of the famous rope trick. In vain.
One account, witnessed by two psychologists and several hundred other people, described a small boy climbing a rope (and a lot more). BUT a film record begins with the rope being thrown into the air, and nothing but the fakir and his assistant standing motionless beside it throughout the rest of the performance. The rope did not stay in the air and the boy never climbed it. The crowd, it seems, was party to a collective delusion. Ref: Von Urban R, Beyond Human Knowledge, Pageant Press, New York, 1958.
Post by brig admin 3 on Oct 28, 2012 13:48:32 GMT -7
I never believed the indian rope trick was real anyway. However, I find it most difficult to believe in mass hypnosis. I attended a show put on by a hypnosis practioner who attempted to hypnotize the audience. Only a few were affected. Mass hypnosis of a large crowd, seems to me, to be well beyond the scope of the craft.I suspect some other sort of shananigans to be in play. Besides how could a large group of people be hypnotised without being aware of it?
Post by brig admin 3 on Oct 28, 2012 13:55:15 GMT -7
So, do you believe levitation by mental power is possible? Marco Polo writes of it in his travels in China. Many others have supposedly witnessed same over the years; including the Famous Dr Holmes in the late 1800s.
Post by catastrophe on Oct 29, 2012 10:45:36 GMT -7
Anyway, as I stated, this is not meant to be a discussion about particular unexplained subjects. I want to draw out possible underlying mechanisms and to see whether there is, so to speak, a unified field theory of the unexplained.
So far we have looked at the indian rope trick and thought mass hypnosis unlikely. One suggestion was collective delusion. One difficulty we face is, in Korzybsky's words, 'the map is not the territory'. Or, as Wittgenstein stated 'The limits of my language mean the limits of my world'. I could interpret this situation as part of the 'unexplained' issues may be in our attempt to describe these linguistically.
To look at another area, many experiments on controlling material outcome with the mind depend on the interest and expectation of groups.
The early J B Rhine (1934) experiments at Duke University were not particularly impressive in their own right. 'Neither dice nor random tables get bored, but people do - especially when called on to perform the same tedious task, perhaps thousands of times. Rhine and others found evidence of the effect of human mood and interest on the proceedings. This was particularly evident in experiments which offered subjects something more appealing to play with than cards or dice.' Cox, W E, 'The effect of PK on the placement of falling objects' Journal of Parapsychology 15:40, 1951.
This shows that the 'more scientific' viz 'objective' the tests the poorer the results. In fact, I might suggest that the original PK results were so poor as not to be classified as unexplained.
So, if PK exists, it may depend on human interaction. But I cannot see delusion as any part of this, although 'the crowd' still seems to be involved.
Post by brig admin 3 on Oct 30, 2012 16:53:35 GMT -7
Its a fine line between self hypnosis and delusion. How can a delusion be contrived to fool a crowd of people. Not everyone would be deluded. Either the man threw the rope into the air or he did not. Either the rope remained in the air or it did not. Either the boy climbed the rope or he did not. A man, a rope, and a boy standing before a crowd of people will not the able to delude that crowd into anything but boredom, which will cause the crowd to dissapate. I am aware that you did not mention levitation. I simply used that as a counter ploy to the rope episode. Both claim numerous witnesses over the years and both are equally paranormal if they exist at all.
Post by catastrophe on Nov 1, 2012 10:26:35 GMT -7
"How can a delusion be contrived to fool a crowd of people."
This is an interesting area. One table-tapper has sparked others into table-tapping. I would assume (please give me your take) that hypnosis is powered by an external hypnotist. Delusion sounds more 'self-inflicted'. A delusionist does not, in my opinion, have the same ring as a hypnotist. I'll check my dictionary.
Post by brig admin 3 on Nov 1, 2012 17:40:17 GMT -7
Sounds about right.We know todays greatest magicians are illusionists and they have some very fine materials to work with to create the illusion (or delusion?) But back a hundred or so years ago, did the Indian Fakers have the necessary high tech to create an illusion of a boy climbing a rope?
Post by catastrophe on Nov 1, 2012 17:58:01 GMT -7
"did the Indian Fakers have the necessary high tech to create an illusion of a boy climbing a rope?"
Probably not. I am thinking more along the lines of group delusion, as in the table-tapping example. But I don't have much to add on the rope trick at the moment. Except I think 'trick' is an accurate description.
Post by catastrophe on Nov 3, 2012 15:11:25 GMT -7
I would like to agree on the alledged flood. Why can't you just say we don't agree? Would that detract from the (in my opinion) delusion.
Brig, I am getting close to taking another 'holiday'. Perhaps that is something you would welcome?
As far as crop circles are concerned, they are way down on my list. I had in mind many other topics but there seems little feedback here, your good self excluded. I am seriously asking myself why I 'am here'. Anyway, all the best to Atlantis Rising magazine and I hope this mb reverts to its former glory. TTFN
Post by brig admin 3 on Nov 3, 2012 17:09:25 GMT -7
I feel certain that my final destination will be very good. As for the stars. I was a Science Editor for a daily newspaper for about 15 years. I have researched into astronomy considerably; though that, admittedly, was 35 or so years ago. The creation of Gods universe is a continual process which will go on until He decides to end it. I believe astronomers think that our universe is roughly 14 billion years old. Our own earth is likely 4.2 billion years old. If you think this shakes my faith you are seriously mistaken. God is far more supreme than even the brightest man can hope to envision. And if it makes you feel any better, I thought it was obvious, that you and I do not agree on the flood of Noah.
Post by Author Anita Meyer on Nov 3, 2012 17:38:32 GMT -7
Now this is a very good subject!
I was at a place called the Sci Fi Café having a book signing located in Burlington Wisconsin this past month. It was more or less a conference that has an assortment of people that speak on certain subjects. I was there giving a demonstration/signing on my book. BTW while I was here, I also had the great pleasure of meeting Frank Joseph who writes articles for the Atlantis Rising magazine, and also Wayne May who is the editor for the Ancient American magazine. Both of them were speakers at the conference with an assortment of books. Wayne May, a very intelligent man, who writes about numerous artifacts that have been found here is North America strongly suggest that America was inhabited by Europeans, which were really the Indians from the Jewish tribe of Manasseh. I tend to believe him as the archeological evidence suggests this.
Anyhow on the subject of the paranormal… while I was set up at this conference with my book, a certain lady came up to talk to me. She told me that she works with nonverbal autistic kids that are telepathic and exhibit telekinetic powers. She proceeded to show me a video on her cell phone that showed her secretly putting colors behind the head of an autistic child and somehow the child knew what the color was. She then proceeded to tell me that they telepathically travel with her wherever she goes, and they know where she is and what she is doing at all times. She tells me that they have the power to mess with electronics like computers, cell phones, and send texts messages with their minds alone.
I have to tell you that I was very skeptical about it all, until my husband came and joined into the conversation, which at first he had no clue what it was about. Several minutes passed and all of a sudden his cell phone starts ringing, he looked at it puzzled because it was not showing a name or number of the caller, and the ringer kept ringing and ringing without the voice mail picking up. Even answering the phone did not shut it off, until after a few more minutes it eventually stopped by itself. She told me that one of her nonverbal autistic kids, from a distance, that channel through her, was telekinetically messing with his cell phone.
It was really freaky, and I have no other logical explanations for it. I suppose I could make up several excuses for the phone malfunctioning, but the circumstances surrounding the situation do not seem coincidental.
At the end of the day, I started thinking more intensely on the capability and power if indeed this were true. The possibility of setting off nuclear bombs came to mind, and is a very scary thought?
Post by brig admin 3 on Nov 4, 2012 11:52:38 GMT -7
Circumstances, Catastrophe, circumstances. I'm not certain of the circumstances of what that particular verse refers to. You are taking it literally, whereas the circumstances could very well relate to something you are not aware of. I have run into this conundrum at various times in the past; thinking the Bible was wrong only to learn it was dead on under the circumstances of the time, location, etc. I know this does nothing to change your mind. That is why I have often said to you,"You pay too much attention to the waters surface without appreciating all that goes on beneath the surface. Sorry we cannot satisfy your intellectual explorations. It is kind of interesting that you and I can agree on almost anything but the nature of God. Feel free to return at any time. As I have told you before, you are intellectually stimulating and you can give me an excellent work-out. Best regards until the next time we meet.
Post by Author Anita Meyer on Nov 5, 2012 8:38:34 GMT -7
Hi Cat, I am a firm believer in the Bible. If you haven't read my book, you might not know that the complete Hebrew alphabet is produced from one particular form, which in turn bears the same mathematical measurement that is found throughout the nature world. Very similar to the Fibonacci sequence.
When you delve more deeply into the mystical books, such as Qabalah, the idea is presented that the Creator used the Hebrew letters to form everything in existence.
Thereby telling me that the Bible is indeed the Word of G-d even though it was transcribed by man. What the Hebrew letters reveal (in particular the "one form") is that there is order, intelligence, and divine nature present in the words that are found in the Bible.
Man is not perfect, however G-d is, and what more, a perfect T-R-U-T-H.
Post by catastrophe on Nov 16, 2012 12:16:22 GMT -7
Brig, old friend, I don't intend to get drawn back into any mb where it is thought that one planet in millions in millions of galaxies came before all the rest.
However, "I can agree on almost anything but the nature of God." I don't remember we ever discussed this. As far as I am concerned god is just the catch all for what most people are stupid enough not to understand. As always they can say the same about me. I am always fair.
As a parting thought, some have suggested that the Big Bang was god's act of creation. In my view this is plain ignorance. Since time and space were not separate 'before' the BB, use of the word 'before' shows ignorance of this. As far as I am concerned, recycling is more believable since it does not 'beg the nature of time'.
Even if this planet were of any importance in this galaxy, let alone this universe (and there may be many) what some microscopic human intelligence defines as TRUTH is totally unimportant.
If you, Brig, or in my view any of the lesser 'intelligences' (or should that be without the 's') had been born in China or Russia or even on the twentieth planet in star 100001 in galaxy 3218765 in alternate universe xyz power 31, you would not believe what some arbitrary book promulgates. Or, understanding the nature of ignorance and invention, some other arbitrary book composed by some being who knew nothing of relevance.
One last question, Brig, will you give me an unequivocal answer to one question? Do you REALLY believe that this mediocre planet was created as centre of the (this) universe and all the rest was made on the fourth day?
Post by brig admin 3 on Nov 16, 2012 18:01:44 GMT -7
Do I believe the earth is the center of the universe? No, Catastrophe but neither would I be especially surprised if it was. Remember what I said about circumstances? I would need a bit more information to determine just how the stars fit into the beginning. There could be extenuating circumstances. Too many times in the past, I thought the Bible might be mistaken only to learn it was not.Frankly I cannot see God only creating a living breathing soul on this one insignificant planet. I believe God is far greater than that. Or as the psalmist said,"What is man that you are mindful of him?" Meaning we are insignificant and yet God is aware of us. Instead of trying to pick to pieces a written word that is thousands of years old; perhaps you should instead be aware of the extreme truths that unfold. The body is only a shell that houses the true being, the soul. We have no idea what the soul actually does after it leaves the body. I believe the soul returns to God and we are told we will be happy there. As to the actual facets of this existance, I have no idea. It is enough to know that I'll be happy there. There are celestral pundits who are saying the universe is no more than a computer program. Perhaps they are right. If so, I know the programmer. Peace, Catastrophe.....I truely hope you find it.
Post by realagentscully on Nov 20, 2013 4:52:15 GMT -7
The real problem with attempting to understand the msyteries, as I see it, is that we cannot rely (or trust maybe) the sources of information we have to use in order to ascertain what these mysteries actually are, (and which are geniune myth, misunderstanding).
Religious books may refer to geniune events, but they are probably so messed up by interpretation and rewriting that they may be useless except for getting a sense of past events. Scientific investigation is blighted by the self-imposed filter of materialistic reductionism so we cannot rely on so-called science and 'rational investigation' to help us sort the true from the confused false. The books written by Sitchin, Hancock et al are interpretations and not the truth, I love these types of books as they inspire and give a more believable interpretation of the hidden past than the self-imposed, blinkered and paradigm constrained myths science gives us. But these are alternative-viewpoint writers are professionals who are making a living selling these fascinating interpretations on our past.
Practical science is not the Scientific Method or a will-to-truth but a bunch of academics who look to create theories about reality that are totally constrained by a (IMHO bogus) materialistic dogma. They are human and that is the paradigm science cannot break free of in order to become more open minded to what constitutes valid evidence.
So I am at a loss to know where to even find unbiased and fair information about the mysteries. Every source is human and they all have a self-affirming life agenda (making money, making a scientific reputation, maintaining their own True Belief, etc). They are all creating bias in their stories of history and the true nature of humans.
In the end all I can do is fall back my own experiences as a benchmark for reality of ideas in books. There are so many people out there who are less discriminative about ideas than I would expect. I guess we all invest emotionally in these sorts of ideas. But what really matters is what is true, otherwise we are all just true-believers deluding ourselves.
I know a few things; paranormal experiences are true experiences and UFO encounters are geniune (but are probably not ET). So I feel we live in a paranormally infused universe (something anathma to science at present, sadly). We can dream of future events. And we have to be careful about our paradigms because these are the reality containers into which we fit our ongoing ideas (EG: UFOs are not automatically extra-terrestrial space ships and ghosts are not automatically the energy bodies of recent human dead. Both these paradigms may be quite true but we can't assume it is so just because it is the current consensus reality.
In the words of John Keel, this is (to me) truely an Haunted Planet, (rather than a visited one). Is anyone else concerned about this lack of unbiased information, or is the whole subject one of finding 'evidence' to back up our preconcieved beliefs?
Post by brig admin 3 on Nov 21, 2013 18:27:39 GMT -7
John Keel, if I remember correctly got his start with the Point Pleasant, West Virginia, Mothman story. As Mr. Keel was totally off track with that story, I have to cast a doubtful eye on the rest of his writings. I was a reporter and Science Editor for the Parkersburg evening newspaper, out of Parkersburg, West Virginia, at the time the "Mothman" story broke. I was called into action with the collaspe of the Silver Bridge at Point Pleasant. Thats been many years ago and I have watched the "Mothman" conspiracy mushroom bigger and bigger as the years roll by. First, lets set one point straight. Silver Bridge was getting in rickety shape. After the bridge fell, investigators found several areas where the concrete had crumbled (known as concrete rot) and steel beams were heavily rusted and corroded. The bridge may well have stood until inspectors discovered these flaws, but it was Christmas time and the bridge was under the strain of bumper to bumper traffic. It was just too much for the old structure and it gave away. Mothman had nothing to do with it. There were a number of claims made at that time that were sensationalised by the news media. A "golden globe" or "egg" was found that defied logical explaination; that is, until a highschool athlete saw it was a shotput from the phys ed department. A kid and his girl were driving along a local highway in the boys convertible when the car was suddenly attacked by some large bird "or something" and even though they drove 90 miles an hour rthat bird or whatever was tearing at the convertible top trying to get in. The convertibles was old and there was a well worn tear in the rear side that obviously made quite a noise with the kids driving so fast. Apparently a large crane like bird had flown near the car causing the initial panic. Then we come to "Mothman", the creature that never existed. I got the facts about mothman from a source that does not wish to be known until after his demise. I realize this sounds like a cop out, but listen and draw your own conclusions. This period was during the Viet Nam war period. The government was training hang glider personel for use in the Viet Nam countryside. Code named the "Black Ladies" these hang gliders were using West Virginia hills for practice. The hang gliders were black, flown at night in supposedly sparsely populated areas. On the night in question, a hamg glider became lost and came down near Point Pleasant where he was seen by an extremely nervous lady and her off spring. At this time, night vision goggles appeared pink or reddish instead of the green yo see in todays versions. The hang glider obscured the pilot in the dark making him appear to have no head and the pink night vision goggles would have appeared to be coming out of the monsters chest. He was picked up by a hanging rope ladder from a stealth helicopter common during that period so he appeared to fly straight up before the startled and paniced eyes of his eyewitnesses. But all of this superstition clap has become a wild money maker for the people in Point Pleasant and every hack writer that could turn out a good, supernatural, yarn.
Post by realagentscully on Nov 22, 2013 11:11:59 GMT -7
look, aboutvthat hangie storie. it is unbelievable. back then hang gliders were little more than kites than had an awful glide angle. if you launched from a hill you would end up in the bottom field quickly. they would not have been able to do what you say. and flying one at night with a night vision momocular is absurd and would resuly in loss of orientation and a crash. i fly paragliders alongside hangies and used to be a fixed wing pilot so i know about this topic. hangbgliders, even now, can only stay airborne on thermic daytime conditions or in the orographic lift on the windward sude of a steep hill. back then no hang glider was capable of cross country performance so or any sort of glide angle to take them far from a hill. and so called stealth helicopters are a myth. back then there was no such thing as a quiet rotor. the noise is not the engine but induced drag noise, a by product of rotor blade lift. there are myths a quiet helicopters now but in practice there is no such thing as a stealthy helicopter. so unless this hangie landed at the very bottom of a big hill it didn't happen. they bricked out when not in slope lift and had no glide range at all.
Post by brig admin 3 on Nov 23, 2013 16:28:59 GMT -7
And I'm sure certain people are very glad to hear that. Better we believe in a Moth that is human and wrecks bridges. You've read too many Superman comics. My source is solid.....believe what you wish.
Post by brig admin 3 on Nov 23, 2013 16:33:15 GMT -7
And I'm sure certain people are very glad to hear that. Better we believe in a Moth that is human and wrecks bridges. You've read too many Superman comics. My source is solid.....believe what you wish.
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brig admin 3: on the planet display unmistakable evidence of such. Keep in mind Dr. Brandenburg was a major part of the NASA team for many years.Dr. Brandenburg backs up his theories with NASA's own facts. His most recent book, " Death on Mars", I well worth the reading
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brig admin 3: And he believes the evidence indicates it wasn't millions, but rather, thousands of years ago. He believes there was a humanoid civilization on Mars that met a cataclysmic sudden end. He says there is evidence that the end was thermonuclear and two areas..
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